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Talk:Starfleet ranks/archive 05-08
Fleet Captain Garth is not proof of the RANK of Fleet Captain, only proof that the position exists. Let's be consistent, folks. Every other article on this site agrees: Fleet Captain is a title, not a rank. This is true in both fictional and non-fictional militaries. --Frank NX-01 Fleet Captain Garth, for the person asking for proof of the rank of Fleet Captain --TOSrules 06:42, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC) The rank of Fleet Captain was seen once in an episode of TNG when Picard was called away from the ship for a short time and a Fleet Captain took over for his position. It was an older man and he wore 5 gold pips indicating the rank. :No, it wasn't. If you're the only one who remembers such an event in a universe thats scrutinized more so than our own...perhaps...but people notice the color scheme irregularities in the LCARs. If you're talking about when Edward Jellico took command, you're mistaken...as he was a Captain with Captain pips. That was the only time someone else (outside of a Captain Riker) was officially in command of the Enterprise. Squiggyfm 20:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC) New Movie Uniforms In Star Trek: The Motion Picture, the new uniform scheme was supposedly created leaving out lieutenant junior grade, and the former LTJG stripe was used on an officer referred to as an ensign in dialogue. but there were also ensigns without the broken stripe insignia, meaning that referring to the officer with the LTJG insignia as ensign was simply a dialogue mistake, and this shouldn't (in my opinion) be misconstrued as evidence that Starfleet just kind of 'misplaced' that rank for a few years and then reinstated it a few years later for the ST:2 uniforms. --Captain Mike K. Bartel :Yep, there's a production memo by Jon Povill in "The Making of TMP" which nails down the rank scheme for TMP. There is indeed no Lt. JG. He probably made the same mistake as did Okuda in the Encyclopedia by assuming that there is no Lt. JG rank because it wasn't used on TOS not knowing that in fact it was used in "The Naked Now". All those Yeomen, Specialists and Technicians are just Petty Officers. It's a combination between work description and enlisted rate. A Yeoman third class like Tina Lawton is a Petty Officer 3c who works as a yeoman. A Technician first class like Harrison is a PO 1c who works as a technician. A Chief Yeoman would be a Chief Petty Officer who works as a yeomaon, and so on... Fleet Captain pin That Fleet Captain pin should be removed. It's totally non-canon. It was created by Shane Johnson and was originally intended to be a Commodore pin. :Further, on this wiki's page for fleet captain, it clearly says that it's a position, and not a rank. Some consistency is needed. The provisional Lt. pin was worn by Torres until TPTB retconned her rank to Lt. JG. And Seska, while referred to as Ensign, wore a black pip like all other Maquis with the exception of Chakotay, Torres, and possibly Ayala (not sure on him). Courtesy promotion? :Naval tradition dictates that there may only be one "captain" aboard ship; a visiting captain may receive a courtesy promotion to the rank of Commodore. Is there any evidence that this carries over to Starfleet? I suspect that it does, but I don't have a specific reference handy. -- (Anonymous: 216.193.172.114) Aboard United States Aircraft Carriers (from my Step-uncle who was a Master Chief Petty Officer) there was a Captain who was the Chief Executive Officer, A Captain who commanded the Air Group. A Captain who was the Chief Engineering Officer, A Captain who was in charge of all Communications, And the Senior Executive Officer of the ship was a Rear Admiral. And also on the same carrier, was a Vice Admiral who was in command of the Task Force. He said having two or three people with the Rank of Captain on a ship as large as a Carrier is not un-common. The typical pattern for this is that the Senior Executive, Chief Executive, and Flight Officer hold the rank of Captain. Sometimes the Chief Engineer also had the rank of Captain as well. He also said that a few Rear Admirals were in command of a Single Carrier. Time Travler 4:04 United States Central Standard Time. :Just a few comments: First, while it's entirely non-canon, Diane Duane's novel Spock's World mentions the courtesy issue (almost word-for-word with the above post). Secondly, these comments allow me to mention the line in when Scotty is told he's being promoted to "Captain of Engineering" for the Excelsior... this may have been the promotion that is the reason he is Captain Scott in . (I don't recall what his rank insignia was in ST5, but I didn't see him wearing any obvious rank insignia at all in ST6.). Third(ly), on naval vessels, the commanding officer of a vessel, regardless of his/her actual rank, is typically addressed as "captain" while in command of the vessel. This is in part due to the nature of the term "captain" as both a rank and a position. -- umrguy42 09:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Scotty wore captain's rank insignia in every movie after , although he would switch back and forth from his yellow engineer's shirt to his white command shirt. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 13:00, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC) There was an episode of Voyager where another Starfleet vessel was encountered in the Delta Quadrant. During the episode, the two captains are on board Voyager when Janeway quotes Starfleet regulations saying that if two captains are on one ship, the commanding officer of that ship holds superior rank. This would seem to go against the "courtesy promotion" idea where the "Commodore" would seem to outrank the Captain. :Not really. No one's rank has changed. 'Courtesy promotion' comes from the idea that there should be only one person on the ship who is addressed by the crew as "captain" and that person is the commanding officer of the ship. The commanding officer of a ship has the position of "captain" regardless of actual rank. He/she could hold the rank of captain, lieutenant, admiral, whatever. A courtesy promotion means that the crew addresses another naval captain as "commodore." An Army or Marine captain would be addressed as "major." The title would only be used while the second captain was on the ship. As it's a traditional courtesy, it might be one of those things only a very formal or traditional captain might expect of his crew. I don't know if it was ever shown. – StarFire209 16:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC) Needs attention *Starfleet ranks contains broken image links for about 75% of the images on the page. -- Redfarmer 23:36, 8 Jan 2005 (CET) Valeris' Rank Insignia Valeris is listed here as a lieutenant, and is addressed as such in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, yet in the picture in her article, she is clearly wearing what is shown in this article as Lt. Cmdr's insignia. I was just wondering if there was an inconsistency somewhere... -- umrguy42 09:58, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Valeris was a whole set of uniform errors, she wore a science officer's shoulder strap, a cadet's turtleneck, command officer's trousers and a lieutenant commander's insignia. We better stick to what was the intention in the screenplay -- Kobi - [[ :Kobi|( )]] 11:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Well, I assumed it was probably an error on the part of the filmmakers, especially given all the inconsistencies surrounding the Cadet/Lieutenant issue of Saavik --umrguy42 11:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::I don't see any real inconsistency there -- she was an undergraduate officer who had a cadet rank of lieutenant junior grade, as denoted by her cadet division color and her ltjg insignia - this is consistent with Kirk being a Cadet Lieutenant also, when mentioned in TOS. The only oddity with Saavik is they meant for her to wear a gray science officer tab on her command division color in STIII, after she was already graduated -- so that's not a cadet issue, she is just an officer who ended up wearing a different division color while working in the science position -- something many officers have done before. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 15:44, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) Yeoman not in list? Shouldn't Yeoman be listed on the main rank page? :Yeoman isn't a rank -- its a title. Try reading Yeoman. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 16:13, 7 Aug 2005 (UTC) :: And the Yeoman page starts off "Yeoman is a title, and a rank." ;) --IanWatson 16:27, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC) 23xx - Present?? It seems a bit odd to list insignia used from sometime in the 2300s as being used until the present, since the present is well before the 2300s. Shouldn't it be listed as 23xx-??? or 23xx-(blank) or something? Feets 05:58, 5 Nov 2005 (UTC) :On Memory Alpha the "present" is in the 2370s -- our POV has us treat the Star Trek universe as reality from that perspective -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk Pip skipping.. Anyone else notice a pip skip between Commander and Captain? most other ranks go * *o ** **o ***, with an empty pip every other rank, but there's no ***o between captain and commander. Anyone know if there was ever a rank there? :There was never one mentioned, nor was there ever one designed. It just goes from commander to captain with nothing in between. I think it's the same way with the naval ranking system. --From Andoria with Love 04:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC) ::One thing I find fascinating is the complete lack of rank pip for Lt. Commander in the 22nd century. --AC84 09:00, 23 October 2006 (PST) 22nd century crewmen ranks Considering that Crewman Fletcher wore no rank insignia, but all three of the other rank insignia have been confirmed as crewmen insignia, is it possible that the Earth Starfleet has four crewman grades? Or was the one-slash insignia worn by Daniels simply a disguise and does the Earth Starfleet follow the USN system? I'm trying to resolve this debate over at STEU, and any help would be most appreciated. --Kevin W. 22:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC) :Daniels was a crewman third class, so it is possible that Fletcher was a fourth class of crewman, a midshipman, or a warrant officer. It's also just as likely that Fletcher forgot to wear his rank insignia that day. :P --From Andoria with Love 22:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC) :For the record, the script specifies Fletcher as a crewman, so I guess he's a crewman fourth class... or, like I said, maybe he neglected to wear his rank pips. Who knows with them Starfleet folk. --From Andoria with Love 22:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC) Petty Officer Insignia I photoshopped the most logical insignia for the lower Petty Officers. It's obviously conjectural but it may be better than just having broken image links. Here's an example. File:Tng po1.png Cory 06:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC) :I'd rather have no image links at all than either "conjectural" or broken links. --OuroborosCobra talk 06:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ::Actually, that's a preference I think most (if not all) on MA share; conjecture is either non-canon or fanon, neither of which is permitted on MA. In this case, the image is fanon. Unless, of course, the design turns out to be what was used on-screen. But were these insignia used on-screen? With the exception of Chief O'Brien's CPO insignia, I don't think we saw rank designs for petty officers. --From Andoria with Love 19:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC) :::OK, time for my comments. :::#I made these insignia specifically to take on a "no commercial reuse, no reuse or alteration without attribution" policy for this site, so these newest insignia fall under that same permission, with myself and the alterer both listed as authors. No harm, no foul, just getting that out of the way. :::#The reason I have "scaled back" my efforts and left those links broken are because there are numerous alternate ideas that are possible when you start providing informed speculation. For example, there are different versions out there and, since we only honor the canon episodes and their production materials, we are trying to avoid the more speculative insignia. :::#*suggestion: singling out insignia not seen onscreen, but citing the existence of insignia referenced in licensed publications. For example -- the fleet captain pins from numerous technical manuals could be referenced here, but not illustrated in the main table of ranks. This would allow us to avoid devising our own "likeliest guess" of what an uprecedented insignia would look like. -- Captain M.K.B. 23:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ::::Some time later now, it appears that another discussion has allowed the addition of a fleet captain insignia to the database. Is it possible to use some variation of the "appear" class to 'hide' all of the non-canon and conjectural insignia that are currently part of this table. Some are so elementary, they are almost taken as a given, but they still leave us with questions, and I think it would best to have them "hidden" when the page loads so as not to give readers the impression all these are canon, but to enable them to click and see the off-screen graphics. -- Captain MKB 20:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC) Rear Admiral and Commodore As we know, the rank of Commodore is not mentioned in TNG and later. This probably results in the Fact, that the US Navy phased out this rank and replaced it with Rear Admiral Lower Half. But there is no mentioning or on-screen evidence for RAdm Lower Half either. And as I recall we neither saw the 1-Pip Admiral (TNG s3+) nor the 5-pip Admiral. I think its a pretty fair assumption, that the 1-pip insignia exists, but does the 5-pip insignia exist? Whats the source? In the TOS aera, Commodore was a Flag Officer and in the first movie, it has three stripes suggesting that it is something like a senior Captain. In my opinion, there are two possibile scenarios (in both, the Commodore exists): 1. Neither the 1-pip Admiral nor the Commodore were mentioned in TNG 3+, so I assume, that the 1-pip Admiral is in fact a Commodore. The two 0-pip Admirals seen in the early TNG and refered to as "Admiral" would be one more uniform/rank error. 2. (my favorite) Neither the 1-pip nor the 5-pip Admiral were mentioned or seen. With scenario #1 in mind, the TNG 1-2 flag officer ranks suggest that Commodore has the fancy line and no pips, Rear Admiral has 1,..., Fleet Admiral has 4. Keeping this pip configuration would meen that there is no 5-pip insignia in the 2370s. Fleet Admiral is the highest rank with 4 (like Admiral Paris), Rear Admiral has 1 pip. That leaves the Commodore. As a senior Captain he might have the Captain's pips with the underline (like Sloan). I think it makes sense that Starfleet keeps the rank of Commodore as senior Captain because the CO of a task group (i.g. carrier group) is in the US Navy an Rear Admiral Lower Half who is not aboard one of the vessels. Thats quite alright because there is always communication between the group and the CO. But in Star Trek it is possible that this taks group operates in deep space or somewhere else where direct and real time communication is not guaranteed. So it would be wise to place the CO on one of the vessels (and naming him/her Commodore). And one thought to the rank of Fleet Captain: I think its not a real rank, its a temporary position for the duration of a mission. As Janeway stated, the command goes to the Captain with the superior vessel. But in various DS9 episodes, Sisko commanded a fleet despite the Fact that the Defiant is not superior the the Galaxy class for example. So Sikso could receive a promotion to Fleet Captain for the duration of a mission ensuring his superiority over the other Captains and even possibly Commodores. -- Rom Ulan 00:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC) Rank Skipping? Maybe I am on the wrong page, but I was sure the was references to cadets that had preformed well in Starfleet Academy could have either graduated in three years, or receive the rank of Lieutenant junior grade thus skipping the rank of Ensign, am I wrong or was this in fact previously posted on this page, but removed as there was no source?--Terran Officer 13:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC) :That has never actually been stated by is long assumed to be the reason why Kirk was a full Lieutenant "from the day he left the Academy" and also why Saavik was in her command training, while still a cadet, holding the rank of Lieutenant J.G. In the real U.S. Navy, upon which Starfleet is based, no such animal exists with the only time midshipman graduate din three years being during the Second World War. -FleetCaptain 14:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC) Canon status of Warrant Officer Questioning the canon of this. | THOR 08:54, 5 Dec 2004 (CET) Yeah, I second that. The ranks section in the Encylcopedia is one big mess-up and far from reliable. They managed to put at least 10 errors on only three pages. O'Brien wore the black pip and referred to himself as Senior Chief Specialist. | -- 06:11, 6 Dec 2004 (CET) :I myself find the inclusion questionable, but the Encyclopedia reference indicated it was an intention of the creative staff, even if just the art department, that the fleet have warrant officers. There is only one conjectural situation yet to be mentioned, Kosinski who wore a rectangle with a dark square and a silver square (similar to a US warrant bar) and seemed to be a specialist outside of the command structure, yet with officer priveliges. there are a few other pages that discuss this, so i've left it for now. I find it satisfactory, now, especiaaly that the article contains a reference that O'Brien was definitiely not a WO since we have two canon rank references that differ (CPO, then Senior Chief), and the fact that the Voyager pip was seen worn by all Maquis enlisted officers, crewmen and specialists, never a warrant officer-type character :I also find it satisfactory that the body of the article simply defines the term, it rightfully doesnt speculate whether Starfleet uses this or not-- we don't know that. The background info clearly states that this has never been referenced in dialogue, its a backstage reference. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 07:15, 6 Dec 2004 (CET) ::I'm not convinced that the Encylopedia mirrors the art department's original intentions. -- 16:23, 6 Dec 2004 (CET) :::That's why I think its one of the strengths of this article that it is no reference to there actually being any such thing as a "Starfleet warrant officer." This article is mainly to correlate a number of other background references on this site, not to promote speculation as to a non-canon Starfleet position. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel I concur that the article is pretty much accurate, and probably harmless to canon. A point of perspective, which I think Roddenberry, Jeffries and other veterans will understand. Between the non-commissioned ranks (Petty Officer, Chief Petty Officer ''-- called "Chief" -- etc), is a form of officer, the ''Chief Warrant Officer. Unlike commissioned officers, CWOs (or as their called, "cee double-u oh's") are appointed to their rank via testing and application. At least in some services, CWOs have specialties, e.g. COMMS, ELECTRONICS, SUPPLY, etc. The collar insignia reflect this (one collar has the rank, the other has the specialty). Applicants for appointment have to be CPO or higher. In some services, once you've been a CWO, you can converted to a commission and be promoted to LT. (Conjecture follows) So related to the Kosinski character, it's not unlikely that some subject matter specialist could be given a temporary appointment to CWO for a specific mission. Why? It would grant such a person a status in Star Fleet, authority and access to systems and resources, maybe even some "credits" (pay) and privileges at the Star Fleet commissaries. ;) -- Kojirovance 22:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC) Kosinski :It has been speculated that Kosinski may have been given the position of "warrant officer" due to the nature of his warp drive experiments which would require some command over starship engineering personnel. His highly disrespectful attitude towards commissioned officers has led many fans to believe that he was a civilian granted his rank due to the nature of his assignment and not a regular Starfleet member. "It has been speculated" by whom? And who are these "many fans"? Frankly, I'm opposed to any type of "many fans think," "many fans believe" or "many fans wished" type of phrasing, so I've removed this unless someone has a concrete reason to put it back. Even the discussion above implies it's nothing but conjecture. - Bridge 05:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC) :When the episode came out in 87/88 it was in several magazines, such as Starlog which is where I remember reading it. Its also been in numerous Pocket Books novels (at least two or three). I've also heard (but I dont know that this is true), that he was referenced in the script as "Warrant Officer Kosinski". I think its been around enough to warrant (no pun intended) being in the article. -FleetCaptain 19:41, 11 November 2007 (UTC) :I forgot to add its also been mentioned just as much that his insignia was that of a provisional officer, a predecessor to the rank insignia seen in Voyager. An article could be started on this, I feel, to sort it all out. -FleetCaptain 03:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC) Merging (from "Warrant Officer") As much as I like this article, it's a very sad truth that this rank actually isn't mentioned anywhere in canon. The background notes, though, and very good and should be kept. I propose making this a redirect to Starfleet ranks and having a section within that article that explains the existence (albeit non-canon) of this rank. -FleetCaptain 15:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC) :Support. I agree that it is too well done an article to simply delete it despite it being mostly non-canon. The background portion should be kept somewhere.--31dot 17:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC) ::Support – Cleanse 02:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Earth/Federation Starfleet Ranks This is something I am curious about, Memory Alpha considers Earth Starfleet and Federation Starfleet to be separate (I personally, have mixed feelings on this ><). With that said then, how come the ranks for both organizations are written on one page? The mirror universe starfleet is on a differnt page. I'm curious because this article in places seem to indicate that they are one in the same. Perhaps they should be on differnt pages, or a mention in the discussion of the individual ranks (example, Lieutenant Commander) of how Earth Starfleet may, or may not have used it. --Terran Officer 23:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC) Fleet captain pin Considering the changes from admiral to fleet admiral (2360s era version) (an extra sphere) i have made a fleet captain pin for that era, if anyone is interested i uploaded it at http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/3022/fleetcaptainvm9.gif i have decided not to upload it to memory-alpha because i am not sure it would be suitable in any articles here. However, if a starfleet-captain insignia did exist in the mentioned era, it is probable that it would be the image i linked to. I made this image by editing the captain pin on the memory alpha page for that era, so if anyone does decide to upload it on memory-alpha, you have my permission and it is entirel legal, meeting copyright-law requirements. The image background is entirely background (which took significant program searching then editing on my part). I am using this image on a project of my own (separate from memory-alpha), so if anyone is curious for such an image you are free to use it for whatever you want. Regards, Tresmius 14:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC) :We can and will never include it here on Memory Alpha because it is non-canon. --Jörg 14:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC) I am aware of the non-canon part, and i was expecting someone would post within 5 minutes stating that, but my post was merely informing, and that if it did exist it would look like this, and if anyone wishes to use it in external projects they may, thanks. Tresmius 14:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC) Dark background? According to the italic text under the flag officer section, insignia with dark backgrounds were taken from behind-the-scenes sources. However, all the insignia have the same color backgrounds. -- 22:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC) :Well? Anyone? --Dbutler1986 06:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC) ::Based on the history it's most likely that images with dark backgrounds were replaced with images without dark backgrounds. Those older images no longer exist so it's up to someone to update it again. – Morder 07:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)